Oh, my beloved Cipsoft..

[Nostrax]

Found this on the Tibia.com forums, seems pretty interesting :o


I don't know if some discussion have already taken place about this, but I recently paid a visit to the company website and found the turnover of 2011 finally published. As I already expected it would be lower than the previous year, this is also the first time we see this since the creation of CipSoft GmbH.

2010 €7,873,114
2011 €7,741,728

Just to clarify for those who doesn't understand, TURNOVER is NOT equal to PROFIT. The number only represents all the money the company brought in, not their winnings.

So even with desperate "Limited offers" from 2011-now they didn't manage to overcome their peak of 2010. These numbers doesn't mean much but it does explain to you that the interest from either customers or investors (most likely both) have declined, atleast in 2011. Is that bad? Most definitely.

Here below on the other hand you will find numbers that are of value:
ASSETS

A. Fixed assets
2011: 177.452,18
2010: 274.094,80
I. Tangible assets
2011: 177.452,18
2010: 274.094,80
B. Current assets
2011: 6.296.866,17
2010: 4.532.538,75
I. Receivables and other assets
2011: 628.072,51
2010: 590.926,19
II. Cash, federal bank balances, cash in banks and checks
2011: 5.668.793,66
2010: 3.941.612,56
C. Prepaid expenses
2011: 31.799,67
2010: 30.940,57

TOTAL ASSETS
2011: 6.506.118,02
2010: 4.837.574,12

LIABILITIES

A. Equity/Financial capital
2011: 4.567.110,31
2010: 2.905.847,31

I. Subscribed capital
2011: 26.000,00
2010: 26.000,00
II. Capital reserves
2011: 22.837,82
2010: 22.837,82
III. Retained earnings
2011: 2.857.009,49
2010: 995.389,05
IV. Net income
2011: 1.661.263,00
2010: 1.861.620,44
B. Provisions
2011: 796.265,58
2010: 836.756,17

C. Liabilities
2011: 145.824,29
2010: 86.303,08
which due within 1 year
2011: 145.824,29
2010: 86.303,08
D. Prepaid expenses
2011: 996.917,84
2010: 1.008.667,56


TOTAL LIABILITIES
2011: 6.506.118,02
2010: 4.837.574,12

Most importantly you should take note of the €200,357 drop in net income 2011 compared to 2010 (their best published year). That equals to a 12% drop in net income.


DISCUSSION has been opened! ;D

[Jah]

They still make tons of money.
They will do that for a couple of year, in 3 years, (give or take 1) when they realize that the numbers aren't changing to the better, Tibia, will either be sold or completely shut down.

Easy.

[Nostrax]

They still make tons of money.
They will do that for a couple of year, in 3 years, (give or take 1) when they realize that the numbers aren't changing to the better, Tibia, will either be sold or completely shut down.

Easy.

They got 200.000 euro less profit then the year before.. A decrease of 12%, so their profit wen't down alot!


"The net income 2011 was €200,000 less than 2010. €40,000 lower than in 2007 which was a magic year where the net income increased with about €670,000 euros compared to 2006."

[Jah]

They got 200.000 euro less profit then the year before.. A decrease of 12%, so their profit wen't down alot!


"The net income 2011 was €200,000 less than 2010. €40,000 lower than in 2007 which was a magic year where the net income increased with about €670,000 euros compared to 2006."

Yes, but they are still making some nice profit.
They will keep on doing this and hope for a change to the better, when in 2-3 years they realize it wont come, they will shut it down.

Aslong as they make profit of the game, they will keep it up.

[Nostrax]

Yes, but they are still making some nice profit.
They will keep on doing this and hope for a change to the better, when in 2-3 years they realize it wont come, they will shut it down.

Aslong as they make profit of the game, they will keep it up.

Well it clearly tells us that Cipsoft isn't growing any further. And can they shut down the game all at once?;O

(PS: I really would like to see the statistics of 2012 rofl)

[RoxZin xD]

Funny to see that hahaha

[Jah]

Well it clearly tells us that Cipsoft isn't growing any further. And can they shut down the game all at once?;O

(PS: I really would like to see the statistics of 2012 rofl)

I could of told you that without those numbers.
Cipsoft, and tibia and all the other games they own is on it's way down.

I stil think Tibia is their main-income, so if they're going to shut down, we will notice because they wont start with tibia :)

[Atheist]

Nostrax is right, it is alot, but taking into account the many facilities they have given us in this past years like premium scrolls combined with the fact that nobody is getting banned and the scroll's price raises by the hour, I'd say that we should prepare for some sick numbers in recent year's turnovers, I mean, I've even seen people buying accounts JUST to be able to buy premium scrolls, for cryin' out loud.

Ah, and ofc the limited-time outfits and mounts that they've been releasing lately, numbers cant go but up.

Atheist.

[SamDaMan]

They will do that for a couple of year, in 3 years, (give or take 1) when they realize that the numbers aren't changing to the better, Tibia, will either be sold or completely shut down.
Easy.

Oh my god. If only this multi-million dollar company had you as their adviser, instead of some awful professional administrative team including trained accountants.
WHEN WILL THEY REALIZE THEY NEED TO BRING IN AMATEUR ECONOMISTS?!?!?!?

[Nostrax]

Nostrax is right, it is alot, but taking into account the many facilities they have given us in this past years like premium scrolls combined with the fact that nobody is getting banned and the scroll's price raises by the hour, I'd say that we should prepare for some sick numbers in recent year's turnovers, I mean, I've even seen people buying accounts JUST to be able to buy premium scrolls, for cryin' out loud.

Ah, and ofc the limited-time outfits and mounts that they've been releasing lately, numbers cant go but up.

Atheist.

Thats just the point, those limited-time offers is just telling how desperate they are ^^ and not thousands of customers are getting em lol

[Jah]

Oh my god. If only this multi-million dollar company had you as their adviser, instead of some awful professional administrative team including trained accountants.
WHEN WILL THEY REALIZE THEY NEED TO BRING IN AMATEUR ECONOMISTS?!?!?!?

No need to flame nor' be ironic.
I know that was simple to figure out, but since this was supposed to be a discussion, i added my opinion.
Cunt.

[Joey]

As more and more brs comes to the game they will eventually make more than they did 2010..

[SamDaMan]

No need to flame nor' be ironic.
I know that was simple to figure out, but since this was supposed to be a discussion, i added my opinion.
Cunt.

No need to be a cunt over a simple joke.
Cunt.

[Jah]

No need to be a cunt over a simple joke.
Cunt.

Stick to the topic, keep the jokes for your late night shows.
Cunt.

[DarkstaR]

We don't need numbers to see Tibia is fucked.

It's a game using nearly 20-year-old technology and trying to pass itself off as playable. It has some fun aspects, this is true, but it's no longer attracting a new audience and any sustainable looking profits coming in are mostly because the people who started playing in 2004 are grown up now and can finally afford to buy characters and premiums so they can have the Demon Legs they always wanted, not realizing that they would need 50 Demon Legs for it to even be the accomplishment it was 10 years ago. Better games are being made and better companies are triumphing; CipSoft, on the other hand, is sticking to their tried and tested methods -- which is usually a virtue in business -- and not realizing that they are playing a dangerous game of entrepreneurship, dictated by the parabolic curve of Moore's Law.


















































Cunt.

[Grizzly]

I called this chick a cunt one time and the bitch started punching me in the face. Almost dropped the hoe

[Elvang]

Yes, but they are still making some nice profit.
They will keep on doing this and hope for a change to the better, when in 2-3 years they realize it wont come, they will shut it down.

Aslong as they make profit of the game, they will keep it up.

Remember they are paying 66 people with that money, average it out and everyone makes 100grand, but thats not including their expenses, and other people get paid more than others.

[Dizix]

I'm guessing they will do something to keep Tibia alive, they always manage to do so. But releasing new servers is not likely an option, I'd say they should start merging some of the dead pvp servers with eachother in order to fill up the servers and go from there.

[Joshwa534]

These are older documents they released back in 2009. ;)
Clearly they haven't stopped shit and thus continue to sink into the abyss.

http://i46.tinypic.com/ehj4mr.png

http://i48.tinypic.com/24v18jl.png

[Freakshow]

I'm guessing they will do something to keep Tibia alive, they always manage to do so. But releasing new servers is not likely an option, I'd say they should start merging some of the dead pvp servers with eachother in order to fill up the servers and go from there.


Word.

[Joshwa534]

Spectrus

Finally found the link again here (http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1014908/Inside-Tibia-The-Technical-Infrastructure). You can view their hardware and such, even though this is a year and a half old, it should still be pretty accurate.

"Inside Tibia
The Technical Infrastructure of an MMORPG"

[Jah]

Spectrus

Finally found the link again here (http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1014908/Inside-Tibia-The-Technical-Infrastructure). You can view their hardware and such, even though this is a year and a half old, it should still be pretty accurate.

"Inside Tibia
The Technical Infrastructure of an MMORPG"

No wonder it's called kicksoft.

[DarkstaR]

No wonder it's called kicksoft.

You must know absolutely nothing; it seems like you're just trying to sound like you do. They actually have a very good server model. It is surprisingly well employed, considering the technology behind their shitty client.

[Jah]

You must know absolutely nothing; it seems like you're just trying to sound like you do. They actually have a very good server model. It is surprisingly well employed, considering the technology behind their shitty client.

Actually, i'm not trying to know anything nor' do i know anything.
In my eyes it just looked really poor, and according to some other forum-members it did aswell.

Also, in my opinion, everything is shit about cipsoft, i just play because of addiction.
Hugs and kisses DarkstaR! :)

[DarkstaR]

In my eyes it just looked really poor, and according to some other forum-members it did aswell.

That's a problem. You used ignorance to perpetuate an incorrect but common opinion, delivered to you using the same mechanism in which you are delivering it to others. It's not only ignorance, it's willful ignorance. This is the same vehicle that, at one point, made the majority of the American population believe global warming was nothing but bullshit. This is also the same vehicle that has stunted scientific growth all around the world. But, worst of all, it's the vehicle that made people believe iBot is safer than XenoBot. So, for the sake of my profit (and, you know, the growth of society as a whole, I guess..), how about when we don't know what we're talking about, we shut the fuck up instead of band-wagoning?

</rant>

[Jah]

That's a problem. You used ignorance to perpetuate an incorrect but common opinion, delivered to you using the same mechanism in which you are delivering it to others. It's not only ignorance, it's willful ignorance. This is the same vehicle that, at one point, made the majority of the American population believe global warming was nothing but bullshit. This is also the same vehicle that has stunted scientific growth all around the world. But, worst of all, it's the vehicle that made people believe iBot is safer than XenoBot. So, for the sake of my profit (and, you know, the growth of society as a whole, I guess..), how about when we don't know what we're talking about, we shut the fuck up instead of band-wagoning?

</rant>

I won't start an argument with you, since you spend to much time to get into one as it is.
And that most people i've seen getting in an argument with you loose badly (No shit) and usually end up being in a so called "fight" with you.
That's a position i'm not searching for to be in, so yes.
I'm an ignorant bitch that should stfu.

Hugs and Kisses.

[DarkstaR]

I won't start an argument with you, since you spend to much time to get into one as it is.
And that most people i've seen getting in an argument with you loose badly (No shit) and usually end up being in a so called "fight" with you.
That's a position i'm not searching for to be in, so yes.
I'm an ignorant bitch that should stfu.

Hugs and Kisses.

I'm not trying to fight or call names, but I saw something that I have a problem with and I stated it. I do that often. Also, one thing you will notice about me is that I can argue with you in one thread while simultaneously being your friend in another thread - I don't hold grudges, I debate opinions. Anyways, I appreciate the passiveness. Carry on.

[Jah]

I'm not trying to fight or call names, but I saw something that I have a problem with and I stated it. I do that often. Also, one thing you will notice about me is that I can argue with you in one thread while simultaneously being your friend in another thread - I don't hold grudges, I debate opinions. Anyways, I appreciate the passiveness. Carry on.

I know all that already, but i'm a fragile person, you might hurt me.. (A)
Peace!

[Beo]

I know all that already, but i'm a fragile person, you might hurt me.. (A)
Peace!

Wheres ur lifetime gone?!

[XtrmJosh]

I'm not trying to fight or call names, but I saw something that I have a problem with and I stated it. I do that often. Also, one thing you will notice about me is that I can argue with you in one thread while simultaneously being your friend in another thread - I don't hold grudges, I debate opinions. Anyways, I appreciate the passiveness. Carry on.

I'm up for debating the quality of their game servers. Though the blades are just fine for a game like Tibia, they aren't exactly modern let alone designed for working in quite such a complex way as required by their updates to the game itself. I mean just look at their configuration of the entire system and you can see it's like one big grid, everywhere is accessible from everywhere given the correct access... Though they do state some intentions for the next game (which is now released under the title "Action Fighters", but is a web / turn based game from my experience). Also makes me laugh, they use RSA based encryption for their login system, why the fuck don't they store the info once it is encrypted? It also states that they don't use a timestamp in their RSA encryption, just to add insult to injury... It's all poorly designed and constructed, but in their defence it was developed by people fresh from uni with little experience in the gaming industry.

Interesting shit though, I like that they are starting to make a loss after banning so many of us...

[DarkstaR]

I'm up for debating the quality of their game servers. Though the blades are just fine for a game like Tibia, they aren't exactly modern let alone designed for working in quite such a complex way as required by their updates to the game itself. I mean just look at their configuration of the entire system and you can see it's like one big grid, everywhere is accessible from everywhere given the correct access... Though they do state some intentions for the next game (which is now released under the title "Action Fighters", but is a web / turn based game from my experience). Also makes me laugh, they use RSA based encryption for their login system, why the fuck don't they store the info once it is encrypted? It also states that they don't use a timestamp in their RSA encryption, just to add insult to injury... It's all poorly designed and constructed, but in their defence it was developed by people fresh from uni with little experience in the gaming industry.

Interesting shit though, I like that they are starting to make a loss after banning so many of us...

I'm not talking about the actual servers, it's the infrastructure. Server can be replaced. It looks like they are running CentOS across the board, so they can easily move the image to a more powerful server. They have a good load-balancing model going.

Also, the fuck? Their RSA does use a ticket. Also, they shouldn't store the data. It was cracked because of an exploit in the way they implemented their encryption. The exploit worked because the bigint library being used by the game did not support modulus on a negative number, which, given the fact that they had their factors backwards (p was > q, q should be > p) , would happen since they were using the Chinese Remainder Theorem to optimize their decryption (h = qinv*(m1 + p - m2) mod p). The server would immediately close any connections where the negative modulus occurred during decryption. This "oracle" allowed factoring of the RSA key. Volfram from TPForums is the one who wrote the hack and people like me and Jo3 were around when he was posting updates in his thread. Jo3 was also one of the ones to help report it to Cip and get it fixed, which they failed to mention in their presentation.

[Jah]

Blablabla, smart argument makes Jah feel stupid blablabla..

Totally irrelevant, but i just have to do this..
DarkstaR, this is the way i look at you.
A badass einstein with a monkey.

http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/250x250/24843316.jpg

[smeg]

Holy shit, those numbers are actually way better than I expected them to be. Apart from what we see ingame that Tibia is going on its way down, those numbers really surprise me in a good way.

Edit: read the reply's, dafuq is everyone talking about? They barely got any debts (most of the debts consist of prepaid expenses, which I read as PACC that hasn't been used yet). They make a great profit, 1.6 Million on an equity of 2.9 Million. They have 5.6 Million CASH. This is just a great cow to milk from(yea I know that sounds stupid, it's a dutch saying)

[Jayy375]

I wonder more about the numbers of Elfbot & Neobot. Cant be less then 10% of that xD

[hoodnasty]

We don't need numbers to see Tibia is fucked.

It's a game using nearly 20-year-old technology and trying to pass itself off as playable. It has some fun aspects, this is true, but it's no longer attracting a new audience and any sustainable looking profits coming in are mostly because the people who started playing in 2004 are grown up now and can finally afford to buy characters and premiums so they can have the Demon Legs they always wanted, not realizing that they would need 50 Demon Legs for it to even be the accomplishment it was 10 years ago. Better games are being made and better companies are triumphing; CipSoft, on the other hand, is sticking to their tried and tested methods -- which is usually a virtue in business -- and not realizing that they are playing a dangerous game of entrepreneurship, dictated by the parabolic curve of Moore's Law.
This.

[SamDaMan]

This.

That.

[XtrmJosh]

I'm not talking about the actual servers, it's the infrastructure. Server can be replaced. It looks like they are running CentOS across the board, so they can easily move the image to a more powerful server. They have a good load-balancing model going.

Also, the fuck? Their RSA does use a ticket. Also, they shouldn't store the data. It was cracked because of an exploit in the way they implemented their encryption. The exploit worked because the bigint library being used by the game did not support modulus on a negative number, which, given the fact that they had their factors backwards (p was > q, q should be > p) , would happen since they were using the Chinese Remainder Theorem to optimize their decryption (h = qinv*(m1 + p - m2) mod p). The server would immediately close any connections where the negative modulus occurred during decryption. This "oracle" allowed factoring of the RSA key. Volfram from TPForums is the one who wrote the hack and people like me and Jo3 were around when he was posting updates in his thread. Jo3 was also one of the ones to help report it to Cip and get it fixed, which they failed to mention in their presentation.

Somewhere in that document it has a page "flaws of their security" or some shit, and it includes the mention that they didn't use a timestamp etc in their RSA, so there was a security flaw. Yes, some encryption is used between client and server, but it's fucking pointless having that level of encryption then storing your account data locally on their machine for all the world to see. They could've at least MD5'd it or some shit, then released the memory from the input boxes just to hide it a little.

The infrastructure does support easy upgrades, but it's still not well laid out, generally speaking a server should not be publically accessible at all, their model clearly shows that it is (though behind 3 firewalls, those 3 firewalls have proven to be less than useless on countless occasions, hence their free premium, blessings, and double exp weeks which they occasionally toss us in the hope that we will forgive their bad infrastructure).

[DarkstaR]

Somewhere in that document it has a page "flaws of their security" or some shit, and it includes the mention that they didn't use a timestamp etc in their RSA, so there was a security flaw. Yes, some encryption is used between client and server, but it's fucking pointless having that level of encryption then storing your account data locally on their machine for all the world to see. They could've at least MD5'd it or some shit, then released the memory from the input boxes just to hide it a little.

There is a point. RSA protects the data as it flies over the network. To access data in memory, you need direct access to the victims machine. To access their login packet, you can theoretically be across the world. Using a proper ARP poison you can intercept login packets from completely different networks, given you can spoof the ARP before it hits the destination. These are two totally different approaches with totally different means and ends, and in no way relate to the problem. Also, the cracked RSA was caused by, as I said before, the use of a bad library with the Chinese Remainder Theorem, the cryptography ticket (aka timestamp) was irrelevant.

I agree that they should encrypt account and password in memory, however, I present the argument in the proper and sensible place. In the story of the RSA, its irrelevant as it does not relate to the same reach of security.