Tile/Node Randomizer

[levra7]

Well I've noticed that when botting that obviously it always follows the same waypoints, obviously since you added that node, but what if you could add a randomizer. Something like I select this node to be walked on and it will step on a tile within the radius of that one next time so that your path of walking isnt so repetative. A couple of people have called me out on botting because they saw me follow the same path.

Like this crappy drawing

- = pathway
[x] = node slected

Original Node
--------------[x] Same pathway always followed

Randomized node

----------
............ [x]-------- Randomized pathway within the 8 tile radius of where your node is.

[Infernal Bolt]

it will skip nodes if it finds a monster close to a node or walk close to the next node when it is running the monster.
if you want "randomized" waypoints then make a few different paths in the cave and use a randomizer to select which path to take.

[dinmamma]

Well, it sounds like a good idea, but you could make it better by adding few labels and doing 3 different nodes in different sqms for the same "area" where you want to walk. Then with labels and a script just randomize which one will be chosen.

[Ropiderz]

It's simple, create 3 ways around cave.

So when you reach a label make it random like:


local ValidLabels = {"Way1", "Way2", "Way3"}
Walker.Goto(ValidLabels[math.random(1, #ValidLabels)])

Creating random radius nodes aren't a good idea, I guess, because the pathfinder should check if the tile is walkable and then makes less smoother than it is actually.

[Daemon]

Well I've noticed that when botting that obviously it always follows the same waypoints, obviously since you added that node, but what if you could add a randomizer. Something like I select this node to be walked on and it will step on a tile within the radius of that one next time so that your path of walking isnt so repetative. A couple of people have called me out on botting because they saw me follow the same path.

Like this crappy drawing

- = pathway
[x] = node slected

Original Node
--------------[x] Same pathway always followed

Randomized node

----------
............ [x]-------- Randomized pathway within the 8 tile radius of where your node is.

:P Definately see your point behind the post so good thinking on your part :P. DarkstaR is a firm believer that virtually anything can be done within LUA scripting such as randomizing of waypoints... just depends on how much work you want to put into it. The best idea is what Infernal Bolt said and he has been around for a long while helping the community tremendously. So I think his idea would be a great idea if you want to put the work into it. P.S. if you ever want to bot a character out of rookguard his free rookguard script is amazing.

[thenick]

yeah thats should be implemented for sure. Sometimes u have like a stair where u could go up by many diferent ways but your character always step on the same sqm no matter what. If cipsoft has serverside detection algorithm where it checks the most sqm stepped in a span of time. With that system we could reduce greatly the chances of getting redflag .

[Xeno Scripts]

Using randomized waypoint is not more human-likley.

I think XtrmJosh has spoked about this before but can't bother to find his old posts, but I'm sure he can say something! :)

[dinmamma]

I personally use random waypoints when it comes to stairs which are more than 1x1 sqm aswell as when there are return points, as you don't want to step on the same sqm all the time when turning back for example.

[Furpan]

Using randomized waypoint is not more human-likley.

It would depend on the script/spawn itself and what kind of manuallers there are today. Having a randomizer of labels like Ropiderz would add a bit more of the human brain to it, personally I would never manual in the same spawn within 2 hours and walking the exact same path. This would be a good thing for not getting trapped by items or players in the spawn.
Example:
"Z" knows the botters path when botting x spawn could just wait at node xxx with the trap setup.
Having the label randomizer would throw things around in "Z"s head, thinking he might just be back from botting or actually manualling.


---
As far as it goes for detection, I can't tell since I don't know much/nothing about the detection system.

[Ropiderz]

Well some time ago (2-3 years) I thought this would change something in the auto-detect aspect, but nowadays I think it's pretty useless. My theory is that they sum stamina of all characters in the same account. If the stamina is higher than X then the character account have a high chance of being a bot. But until now I couldn't check if this is true by myself, I'm botting a 24/7 accounts and they have never been banned. (1 of them is almost 2-years old)

[reecey]

At the guys saying random waypoints isnt more 'human'... wtf?

When we hunt manually its nearly impossible to follow the same 'waypoints' and we dont anyway... you can CLEARLY spot a bot over a manual player just by watching him walk 6 sqm into a dead end with no monsters, a human would never do that... and wouldnt it be one of the first things to detect bots by watching for continuos repeated tasks/waypoints ?

[Ropiderz]

At the guys saying random waypoints isnt more 'human'... wtf?

When we hunt manually its nearly impossible to follow the same 'waypoints' and we dont anyway... you can CLEARLY spot a bot over a manual player just by watching him walk 6 sqm into a dead end with no monsters, a human would never do that... and wouldnt it be one of the first things to detect bots by watching for continuos repeated tasks/waypoints ?

So, do you suppose CipSoft have a tool that detect character movements, store their coordinates, and keep checking if they are being walked every cicle of the bot, for 80 worlds and 30k players ? I don't believe in such situation.

[dinmamma]

So, do you suppose CipSoft have a tool that detect character movements, store their coordinates, and keep checking if they are being walked every cicle of the bot, for 80 worlds and 30k players ? I don't believe in such situation.

I believe they choose one or few worlds at a time to check thoroughly, since lately you can see on the banlists several top levels deleted from the same worlds. So in this case it could be a possibility that they actually check for repeated cycles.

To add, they might also not record every player on a chosen world, they might just go on the ones that get reported alot.

These are just some speculations tho.

[reecey]

So, do you suppose CipSoft have a tool that detect character movements, store their coordinates, and keep checking if they are being walked every cicle of the bot, for 80 worlds and 30k players ? I don't believe in such situation.

Well thats just the thing... None of us know what they are doing or how they could get and store this information. It would seem like a pretty stupid idea to NOT track movements since thats the easiest way for anyone to notice a bot... and yes this situation exists, Jagex use it on 100s of worlds with 2-3k players each world.

[Chuitox]

Everything is possible and a good theory as long as we don't know how they collect information. It is definitely not based only on reports but I believe it they play a major rol

[padj]

Well they may have done this in the past but it seems like they mostly concentrate on bot reports now if you ask me.

[Blequi]

My theory is that they sum stamina of all characters in the same account. If the stamina is higher than X then the character account have a high chance of being a bot.

even this idea being quite interesting from cipsoft's POV, I don't think it happens for, at least, one reason:

Rydan posted a few days ago (and also some other botters) that a GM came to MANUALLY ban all the dicers in a given Yalahar depot. Since dicers, in generals, are online ~24/7 and a GM came to manually ban them, IMO it means cip does not record forever-online people at the moment nor players repeating actions other than walking, because dicers are constantly msging, moving items, rotating, doing whatever but not looping on a cave).

For this reason, I believe that their system is waypoint-based.

[thenick]

even this idea being quite interesting from cipsoft's POV, I don't think it happens for, at least, one reason:

Rydan posted a few days ago (and also some other botters) that a GM came to MANUALLY ban all the dicers in a given Yalahar depot. Since dicers, in generals, are online ~24/7 and a GM came to manually ban them, IMO it means cip does not record forever-online people at the moment nor players repeating actions other than walking, because dicers are constantly msging, moving items, rotating, doing whatever but not looping on a cave).

For this reason, I believe that their system is waypoint-based.
perhaps waypoint-based+report. I had a friend of mine. ek 500. used bot until 440. was without using bot for a year. one day he got deleted after a ferumbras invasion.
all the enemies reported him at same time. his gf. ed 400+ double exp/ml decided to PG ML. someone that hated her decided to report her with all his makers and ask peopled on facebook to report her. next day came and her char was deleted. it was the first time she used a macro.my ek 400. boted for several months on same place with few people going after. after getting DDOS i had to give my char to a friend to bot somewhere else. he put on new chosens. my char didnt last a month . it got too many reports there.

[Blequi]

perhaps waypoint-based+report. I had a friend of mine. ek 500. used bot until 440. was without using bot for a year. one day he got deleted after a ferumbras invasion.
all the enemies reported him at same time. his gf. ed 400+ double exp/ml decided to PG ML. someone that hated her decided to report her with all his makers and ask peopled on facebook to report her. next day came and her char was deleted. it was the first time she used a macro.my ek 400. boted for several months on same place with few people going after. after getting DDOS i had to give my char to a friend to bot somewhere else. he put on new chosens. my char didnt last a month . it got too many reports there.

yeah, I share this waypoint + reports idea as well. IMO, some threshold of reports triggers the detection tool on your character.

[Ropiderz]

even this idea being quite interesting from cipsoft's POV, I don't think it happens for, at least, one reason:

Rydan posted a few days ago (and also some other botters) that a GM came to MANUALLY ban all the dicers in a given Yalahar depot. Since dicers, in generals, are online ~24/7 and a GM came to manually ban them, IMO it means cip does not record forever-online people at the moment nor players repeating actions other than walking, because dicers are constantly msging, moving items, rotating, doing whatever but not looping on a cave).

For this reason, I believe that their system is waypoint-based.

Makes some sense, my friend PG'ed his knight skills up to lv 110 being totally afk for months and 24/7, he hasn't been banned. The acc's he had which were moneymakers, got deleted.

[Tripkip]

Ropiderz , reecey thenick and dinmamma and allothers

I can hardly believe Cipsoft actually has a detection tool that would allow them to store all the movements and actions...Now you ask yourself, wtf is this guy saying!?
Take into consideration, they can barrely provide us stable servers to play on (not just talking ddos), they got 2, maybe 3 servers? 1 american, 1 europian, 1 preview?
So in the name of god, how would they be able to store ALL this info over weeks, even months on such crappy servers. This would mean they would have an extra server with a higher capaibillity then the ones we play, wich means theyre spending more cash on deleting botters, while deleting their customers (wich are paying).

Really, in my eyes its mainly reports, and some really low demanding tool wich might track online times, ip's and mac adresses. Why do I think this? I've got some friends/people I know that get instantly deleted as soon as they register a char on their name/adress. Also this explain cash chars etc getting deleted, and people that actually never botted, simply because they got mass reported or are connected to the accounts they did bot on. Why else does CIP take like a month to even proces ur report?

Using facts and common sense this is the conclusing I would jump to. Not saying im correct, but following our movement would just take too much of their servers in my eyes.
Would like to know what DarkstaR thinks about it and his conclusion on how likely it would be that they could track all our movements with the servers they got etc?

[reecey]

@Ropiderz (http://forums.xenobot.net/member.php?u=5108) , @reecey (http://forums.xenobot.net/member.php?u=16835) @thenick (http://forums.xenobot.net/member.php?u=43) and @dinmamma (http://forums.xenobot.net/member.php?u=9852) and allothers

I can hardly believe Cipsoft actually has a detection tool that would allow them to store all the movements and actions...Now you ask yourself, wtf is this guy saying!?
Take into consideration, they can barrely provide us stable servers to play on (not just talking ddos), they got 2, maybe 3 servers? 1 american, 1 europian, 1 preview?
So in the name of god, how would they be able to store ALL this info over weeks, even months on such crappy servers. This would mean they would have an extra server with a higher capaibillity then the ones we play, wich means theyre spending more cash on deleting botters, while deleting their customers (wich are paying).

Really, in my eyes its mainly reports, and some really low demanding tool wich might track online times, ip's and mac adresses. Why do I think this? I've got some friends/people I know that get instantly deleted as soon as they register a char on their name/adress. Also this explain cash chars etc getting deleted, and people that actually never botted, simply because they got mass reported or are connected to the accounts they did bot on. Why else does CIP take like a month to even proces ur report?

Using facts and common sense this is the conclusing I would jump to. Not saying im correct, but following our movement would just take too much of their servers in my eyes.
Would like to know what @DarkstaR (http://forums.xenobot.net/member.php?u=2) thinks about it and his conclusion on how likely it would be that they could track all our movements with the servers they got etc?

Its only recently people have been seeing a correlation between reports and bans yet the amount being banned has actually lessened............................

I do think they track out movements since really its the only way to detect a bot... to look for patterns a human cant make. How they do this is beyond our knowledge since we dont know how their game and detection tool is built.

[Tripkip]

Its only recently people have been seeing a correlation between reports and bans yet the amount being banned has actually lessened............................

I do think they track out movements since really its the only way to detect a bot... to look for patterns a human cant make. How they do this is beyond our knowledge since we dont know how their game and detection tool is built.

They simply cant store all this info on their servers, unless they spend more cash detecting us then keeping their servers stable... doesnt sound like CIP... anyways, geuss we can't be sure. but im just sure it aint that way.

only way I can think of is, a program analyzing the movement from all players, so not storing the info, trying to find patterns between ALL this players, and then mark certain spots/areas/actions . if a certain player passes this spot area, or makes the same action as the majority, they will be investigated.

Explains why a SHITLOAD of bugWT users on ibot got banned on the banuta EK script for example. All this ek's were stopping on the exact same spot all the time. as this was as he built the script, reach a waypoint, then start attacking, insted of when X monsters like the majority on xenobot does. BUg

[reecey]

They simply cant store all this info on their servers, unless they spend more cash detecting us then keeping their servers stable... doesnt sound like CIP... anyways, geuss we can't be sure. but im just sure it aint that way.

only way I can think of is, a program analyzing the movement from all players, so not storing the info, trying to find patterns between ALL this players, and then mark certain spots/areas/actions . if a certain player passes this spot area, or makes the same action as the majority, they will be investigated.

Explains why a SHITLOAD of bugWT users on ibot got banned on the banuta EK script for example. All this ek's were stopping on the exact same spot all the time. as this was as he built the script, reach a waypoint, then start attacking, insted of when X monsters like the majority on xenobot does. @BUg (http://forums.xenobot.net/member.php?u=584)

We can make this more and more complicated hehe, who knows what they do. They could be bullshitting about their 'tool' and using a swarm of undetectable GMs xD

[thenick]

Tripkip
I could easily guess the massban week a while a go for quite a long time... every month had a week where i was laggy and sometimes even kicks happened. wasn't my internet for sure.usually on the next week or 2. boom, massban.If they do have a software I can bet that this software whenever it did its job would take resourcers of the server and make tibia.
I dont think tibia is running in 2-3 servers. As far as i Remenber every world had a different IPaddress, maybe it is virtual machines?Whoever.. I remenber that some friend once told me a story that one of his guildmates would DDOS tibia. they ddosed keltera i believe, but before they did they gave a warning to his guildmates in fidera to leave hunt.and fidera actually dropped with keltera. so who knows... But seriously.. i dont think is that hard for a company generate a algorithm to get wpts from characters and redflag those that seems suspicious. and maybe they have a tresshold where if X gets X reports Give HIM highpriority and as soon as a redflag popsup. Deleted. I know its a hell lot of chars. but think about facebook. Every msg/post/picture/action is one more line in their database. as a company they should have the resources to do it. Once browsing at a book store i found a book for game developers" how to stop cheating on your game" sometthing like this. they had explaning all those stuff and how to make an algorithm and explaining WOW anticheating system..

[Tripkip]

Tripkip
I could easily guess the massban week a while a go for quite a long time... every month had a week where i was laggy and sometimes even kicks happened. wasn't my internet for sure.usually on the next week or 2. boom, massban.If they do have a software I can bet that this software whenever it did its job would take resourcers of the server and make tibia.
I dont think tibia is running in 2-3 servers. As far as i Remenber every world had a different IPaddress, maybe it is virtual machines?Whoever.. I remenber that some friend once told me a story that one of his guildmates would DDOS tibia. they ddosed keltera i believe, but before they did they gave a warning to his guildmates in fidera to leave hunt.and fidera actually dropped with keltera. so who knows... But seriously.. i dont think is that hard for a company generate a algorithm to get wpts from characters and redflag those that seems suspicious. and maybe they have a tresshold where if X gets X reports Give HIM highpriority and as soon as a redflag popsup. Deleted. I know its a hell lot of chars. but think about facebook. Every msg/post/picture/action is one more line in their database. as a company they should have the resources to do it. Once browsing at a book store i found a book for game developers" how to stop cheating on your game" sometthing like this. they had explaning all those stuff and how to make an algorithm and explaining WOW anticheating system..

Yep I agree with you with this lag part, I've noticed this aswell, Those lags are produced by the anti cheat system aswell I think, but I think accounts alredy have been flagged then, and its just the system checking wich ones to delete (final check), the data mining has to happen over a longer period and would require way to much sources from Cipsoft, u'r talking facebook, world widow billion dollar company. this is cipsoft wich cant even supply stable servers, while facebook does :P

[Spectrus]

ITT: Speculation and nonsense.

Anyway, read these...

http://iseclab.org/papers/botdetection-article.pdf
http://www.syssec-project.eu/m/page-media/3/platzer-icics11.pdf

[BUg]

They simply cant store all this info on their servers, unless they spend more cash detecting us then keeping their servers stable... doesnt sound like CIP... anyways, geuss we can't be sure. but im just sure it aint that way.

only way I can think of is, a program analyzing the movement from all players, so not storing the info, trying to find patterns between ALL this players, and then mark certain spots/areas/actions . if a certain player passes this spot area, or makes the same action as the majority, they will be investigated.

Explains why a SHITLOAD of bugWT users on ibot got banned on the banuta EK script for example. All this ek's were stopping on the exact same spot all the time. as this was as he built the script, reach a waypoint, then start attacking, insted of when X monsters like the majority on xenobot does. BUg

The script was randomized

[RoxZin xD]

Tripkip
I could easily guess the massban week a while a go for quite a long time... every month had a week where i was laggy and sometimes even kicks happened. wasn't my internet for sure.usually on the next week or 2. boom, massban..

I taught you that :rolleyes:

@topic Even with randomization, it would need to be a random node pattern that could skip more than 5 sqms away to be "safer", in my eyes. Stepping on a 2 sqm range and skipping nodes on a 8 sqm range would make, in my eyes, a safer cavebotting and it would be really rare to see your character step twice on the same spot. And Tripkip, of course they can store that info, if my memory is well it was in 2009 or 2010 that they released a graph with the "most visited parts of Tibia" and it would show cities and famous botting spots as the biggest ones.

[Tripkip]

I taught you that :rolleyes:

@topic Even with randomization, it would need to be a random node pattern that could skip more than 5 sqms away to be "safer", in my eyes. Stepping on a 2 sqm range and skipping nodes on a 8 sqm range would make, in my eyes, a safer cavebotting and it would be really rare to see your character step twice on the same spot. And Tripkip, of course they can store that info, if my memory is well it was in 2009 or 2010 that they released a graph with the "most visited parts of Tibia" and it would show cities and famous botting spots as the biggest ones.

Maybe you should read what I posted, one more time. Like i've stated, with the example from BugWT his script, they for sure can check "hotspots" but Recording every step/move you make from every different char is a whole different story.

So there is a HUUUUUGE difference between recording every single move we make on every char then for example simply keeping track on how many times a certain spots get hit by a player.

its like IRL, insted of putting a GPS system in every car and read where this car goes all the time, its actually way simplyer, to just put a few cameras around the highway etc, and simply check if it passes.

Wich takes more data/effort/time do you think? So please think before posting something next time as this are 2 totaly different things.

[RoxZin xD]

Maybe you should read what I posted, one more time. Like i've stated, with the example from BugWT his script, they for sure can check "hotspots" but Recording every step/move you make from every different char is a whole different story.

So there is a HUUUUUGE difference between recording every single move we make on every char then for example simply keeping track on how many times a certain spots get hit by a player.

its like IRL, insted of putting a GPS system in every car and read where this car goes all the time, its actually way simplyer, to just put a few cameras around the highway etc, and simply check if it passes.

Wich takes more data/effort/time do you think? So please think before posting something next time as this are 2 totaly different things.

And then that's where reports come into the scene. I understood what you said in a wrong way, sorry, but I imagine that if an account gets x reports, the system automatically starts checking for the similar patterns and records the movements made by the account's characters. And yeah it would be kind of insane of them to record all characters' movements all the time, but surely could be made, if they want to ;p.

[thenick]

and lets not forget, they do that every month. so they may be able to store like 3 weeks worth of data, analyze on last week , do mass delete, and clean the data but keep some red flags for future analyzes. but in the end it might be as stupid as we think. like "if char get gets x reports in this span of time then add to the database of blacklist."
and a CM goes, pull the database . check characters online. go invisible. check 10min. and decide what to do.
let's say the have 5 CMS working atm?
they all in the same room, they pull the database sorted by numbers of report.
they might check from that database how many chars are online and divide by 5 CM.
lets say each CM must check a player 30 minutes to make a decision.
if they work 6 hrs per day it would be 60 chars being analyzed per day.
in 3 weeks would be 1260 characters being analyzed.
add more few days of working since its one massban every 1 month +-and u have a good average of chars deleted per month.