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DarkstaR
09-27-2012, 02:57 PM
For those of you that don't know, the HyperLoop is a secretive idea (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/09/25/hyperloop_n_1913683.html), hinted at by Elon Musk (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elon_Musk), which essentially proposes international travel at an amazing speed and efficient cost. The proposed transportation method will hypothetically take roughly thirty minutes to go from San Francisco to L.A. Now, my personal guess on the technology which he claims is going to be the "fifth mode of transportation" is that is actually a technology with has been in question for many years and is only based on one scientific premise: Newton's law of universal gravity from 1687 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newton's_law_of_universal_gravitation) - though, in practice, it would be very difficult and take huge engineering feats to implement. Allow me to explain.


1. Gravity and Force Vectoring
Consider the following image:
http://i47.tinypic.com/r2oyo2.png

Imagine that the blue circle is Earth, while the grey dot is it's center point. Now, image the red and purple lines as tunnels through the surface of the Earth. Before we go further with the current illustration, though, lets talk about gravitational pull through a massive body. Assuming no friction and wind resistance, you can, theoretically, travel strait through a massive sphere using nothing but gravitational energy. How? The core of the sphere would accelerate you toward it at a high rate of speed, the rate of acceleration decreasing as you get closer. Once you passed the center (you're going fast as hell, remember), it would start to accelerate you against your current velocity (decelerate, really). However, because you gained that velocity from the same gravitational energy, it will take exactly the same distance to slow you to a stop: stopping you at the surface of the sphere - on the opposite side! Now, it would start to pull you back again, but that would obviously be counteracted using other technology. Don't take my word for it, though. Let's look at the math.

This equation, where G is the gravitational constant and p is the average density of the sphere, describes the time it would take for that phenomenon to occur:
t = root(3Pi / (4Gp))

This equation, using the same constants and R as distance from the center at which we begin to fall, shows the maximum velocity you would reach:
v = R root(4/3 PiGp)

Now, if we put in the constants for Earth and allow Wolfram Alpha to work it out for us, we get the following results:
Time: Roughly 42 minutes (http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=t+%3D+√(3π+%2F+(4(6.673*10^-11)(5540))))
Speed: Rouyghly 17,750 miles per hour (http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=v+%3D+(6.3781*10^6)+√(4%2F3+π(6.673*10^-11)(5540)))


Now we can go back to our diagram. Assuming we go exactly through the center (a line not plotted), our math tells us it would take 42 minutes. How about for the purple line? Or the red line? Surely it's not the same? Actually, it is. The deference in force, calculated by F * sin(theta) is proportional to the difference in distance, calculated by D * cos(theta) [F = force on a strait path, D = length of a strait path, theta = corresponding angles of a vector between the bisected deferred path and the center-point of the strait path]. This means that any cut through the sphere would work out to have the same exact travel period and a maximum speed calculated by v * sin(theta).


2. Friction and Drag
While this method seems like it could be great, friction highly offsets the gravitational pull and would result in significantly different results (one's which I don't know the math to calculate, in fact). However, we can use magnetism to counteract the friction.

Consider this image:
http://i.minus.com/ibhivyegZTuldq.gif

What is happening here? According to zelmerszoetrop on Reddit (http://www.reddit.com/r/askscience/comments/10ho30/what_is_happening_in_this_gif/c6dk4d9), it is a process called "induction heating." Essentially, the alternating electrical current inside the coils is causing a quickly changing magnetic field, essentially suspending the object in place. While this does cause the object to get significantly hot, we can counteract this very effectively (what you're looking at is, essentially, how a motor works). Now, my theory of an easy way to counteract the drag against the air would be to use the spin induced by the magnetic suspension to our advantage by making our capsule essentially a giant propeller, helping to accelerate itself forward as it spins.

There are problems with this, however. For one, I have absolutely no idea how much energy this would take. The whole point of this system would be using gravity to do the work - does this outweigh the benefits? I'm not sure, so let's try another alternative. This second option would be to use permanent magnets to suspend the capsule inside the tunnel. Ideally, it would not spin and would stay perfectly suspended inside of the tunnel. There could then be some sort of on-board propulsion to counteract the drag. We may also have a method of "vacuuming" the tunnel to keep drag minimal.


3. Current Technology
This idea seems very feasible for the far future, but what about today? Physicists have talked about this for years but it has never been anything serious due to many factors:

The absence of capable drilling tech
Seismic anomalies and our lack of understanding of tectonics
No sponsorship
The inertial forces acting upon passengers
etc

4. Conclusion
Has Elon Musk found remedies to our problems with this technology, or is HyperLoop something completely different? The price tag of $6 Billion might say it is, though everything else makes me feel like this is what he is talking about. Regardless of what technology is in the works, though, I'm sure it will be great. What do you guys think it could be?

Elvang
09-29-2012, 02:35 AM
In the interview with Musk didn't he state that it would be similar to the tube tunnel found in the Jetsons?

DarkstaR
09-29-2012, 02:37 AM
In the interview with Musk didn't he state that it would be similar to the tube tunnel found in the Jetsons?

Yes! But he could have a version of this that resembles that. Surely, on a small, single-person scale, it would be much easier to create.

Elvang
09-29-2012, 03:00 AM
It wouldn't be easier to create unless it was just barely beneath the surface of the earth, anything deeper would become an issue. Isn't the deepest we've drilled just before 13,000 m?

Meanwhile i'm wondering how it's "never going to crash". How can he account for earthquakes, volcanoes, and different disasters that could possibly happen if it does indeed go through the earth, or how people would feel about being in a confined space like that?

DarkstaR
09-29-2012, 03:15 AM
It wouldn't be easier to create unless it was just barely beneath the surface of the earth, anything deeper would become an issue. Isn't the deepest we've drilled just before 13,000 m?

Meanwhile i'm wondering how it's "never going to crash". How can he account for earthquakes, volcanoes, and different disasters that could possibly happen if it does indeed go through the earth, or how people would feel about being in a confined space like that?

That my question. If you look at a cut from LA to SF, as he proposes, it doesn't even get a few miles deep into the crust so its possibly doable, though it's still hundreds of miles long. If you keep it on the same tectonic plate and it doesn't run through a fault, I presume earthquakes may not be a huge hazard? At least not any worse than they are to cars.

Infernal Bolt
10-02-2012, 07:42 PM
the problem with this is that it would be incredibly hot near the center of the earth.

DarkstaR
10-02-2012, 07:43 PM
the problem with this is that it would be incredibly hot near the center of the earth.

Plus we'd never get there. The thing is to use shallow tunnels, as proposed between LA and SF. You're barely going into the crust and it has the same effect.

khorne55
01-19-2013, 09:30 PM
I think you and me would be great friends haha. A redditor, likes gaming, likes programming and loves physics. Hard to find people like that !

Jah
01-19-2013, 09:31 PM
I got a headache just by reading this.

Xeromex
01-19-2013, 09:43 PM
I got a headache just by reading this.
RETWEET

Jagnasty
02-02-2013, 02:17 PM
The money and the precision this would take would be outstanding. Money hinders everything, it's one of the reasons why we haven't full explored our oceans depths and the lack of space exploration. Nasa has brought and revamped some serious technology that we use today, yet they are one of the leas funded agencies.

DarkstaR
02-02-2013, 04:14 PM
The money and the precision this would take would be outstanding. Money hinders everything, it's one of the reasons why we haven't full explored our oceans depths and the lack of space exploration. Nasa has brought and revamped some serious technology that we use today, yet they are one of the leas funded agencies.

We're talking about the guy who made PayPal, founded Space-X, and Co-founded Tesla motors. I don't think he plans to let anything stop him.

2202267
02-02-2013, 06:15 PM
wouldn't wou have to include differences in the suns gravitey as the earth rotates and therefore making it stop a little earlier than surface (or more speed then needed)?

zodiacboner
03-02-2013, 05:29 AM
All these things interest me. What type of sciences and or dedication would you have to take to become like an expert genius and make millies.? Hmm°°°

Aka Puppets
06-06-2013, 11:37 PM
No idea on phisics but, would it be possible to make those tunnels with curves so it doesn't go deep into the earth but it can get longer distances?

pixie_frigo
06-27-2013, 02:25 PM
I have always try to avoid replying here since I am in my masters physics at uni at the moment, but exams are over and I got shit to do ^^

Totally not a brilliant idea imo, I think millions of people have wondered what would happen if you drilled a hole in the earth and jumped in it.
Also you will never reach that speed :) The maximum speed when free falling at normal atmospheric presure is around 200km/h (125 miles/h) I believe. (see stokes law)
And since the air density will only get higher when you go deeper you won't even reach that. Your calculations would be correct in vacuum :)
So for it to be worth it they should atleast do it in some kind of tube and suck some air out of it :) B

So 0 chance of happening ;)

But DarkstaR if you like these kind of silly ideas here another one:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_elevator

DarkstaR
06-27-2013, 02:47 PM
Who says it's not a vaccuum? While the initial energy cost to develop the system would be massive, it would be totally efficient. The math works and the riders will not experience ANY G-forces.

Obviously it is a crazy idea, drilling a hole that deep, precise, and wide, but it's an interesting concept.

pixie_frigo
06-27-2013, 04:24 PM
Who says it's not a vaccuum? While the initial energy cost to develop the system would be massive, it would be totally efficient. The math works and the riders will not experience ANY G-forces.

Obviously it is a crazy idea, drilling a hole that deep, precise, and wide, but it's an interesting concept.
But making something like that vaccuum is just impossible :)
And the energy that would be needed would be insanely everytime.

Your idea about the propeler is a little strange too :) Like you see on the picture the largest amount of the energy of the electric field is being converted into heat not motion at the end. Better just put a connect the cabbine to a pole like a rollercoaster then :) and maybe put a plane engine on it

Best system to keep something floating like this is imo the use of superconductivity (meissner) like the maglev train does. But that also requires a lot of electricity and cooling :) And when I think about it, cooling on that depth is nearly impossible too, but more doable then vaccuum. haha

So I guess the only thing is the rollercoaster, atleast thats what I think

Ofcourse only if we assume we would be able to drill a hole like that, keeping in mind that the deepest one was a 20 cm hole (9inch) of like 12km (7.5 miles) deep.(looked it up!) And the diameter of the earth about 1000 as much :)


Conclusion : musk is a dreamer and there is nothing wrong with that especially if you are rich as the earth deep is ;) And I guess he could do better things for science then this or his asteroid mining idea

Also


Geothermal gradient is the rate of increasing temperature with respect to increasing depth in the Earth's interior. Away from tectonic plate boundaries, it is about 25°C per km of depth (1°F per 70 feet of depth) in most of the world


wikiwikiwikiki

DarkstaR
06-27-2013, 04:28 PM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vactrain

That, using magnetic stabilization, and the "Gravity tunnels" idea seems plausible. I agree it is a science fiction approach, but I'm more interested in a mathematical perspective over a current technology one. Basic math says it is possible, but I would love input from someone on the more advanced side of physics. Also, reading back the idea of essentially making the capsule propel itself seems asinine, so ignore that aspect.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, be would the vacuum help solve the heat problems?

pixie_frigo
06-27-2013, 07:16 PM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vactrain

That, using magnetic stabilization, and the "Gravity tunnels" idea seems plausible. I agree it is a science fiction approach, but I'm more interested in a mathematical perspective over a current technology one. Basic math says it is possible, but I would love input from someone on the more advanced side of physics. Also, reading back the idea of essentially making the capsule propel itself seems asinine, so ignore that aspect.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, be would the vacuum help solve the heat problems?

Yeah, no heat because almost no friction :) Nothing is 100% vacuum ofcourse.

It's like feynman said:
"Physics is like sex. Sure, it may give some practical results, but that's not why we do it."
^^

Dan69
07-04-2013, 06:51 AM
My worry would be electromagnetic interference in the induction motor will cause a cancellation in the magnetic flux change and wouldn't passing the earths core flip polarities and completely revese the current direction in the induction motor?

Spectrus
07-16-2013, 02:59 AM
http://www.businessinsider.com/elon-musk-the-hyperloop-design-is-coming-august-12-2013-7

pixie_frigo
07-17-2013, 09:21 AM
My worry would be electromagnetic interference in the induction motor will cause a cancellation in the magnetic flux change

and wouldn't passing the earths core flip polarities and completely revese the current direction in the induction motor?
-> neh, negligible.



and wouldn't passing the earths core flip polarities and completely revese the current direction in the induction motor?
-> Neh, magnetic field of the earth has nothing to do with the magnetic field of the thing you call motor



http://www.businessinsider.com/elon-musk-the-hyperloop-design-is-coming-august-12-2013-7

cool looking forward to it :)

Dan69
07-17-2013, 02:49 PM
-> neh, negligible.

-> Neh, magnetic field of the earth has nothing to do with the magnetic field of the thing you call motor




cool looking forward to it :)

Quite right, looking back it looks obvious its immune to gravity flip!

Hawk
07-17-2013, 02:56 PM
Quite right, looking back it looks obvious its immune to gravity flip!

I'm selling lawnmower that works on magnets. Interested?

pixie_frigo
07-17-2013, 05:53 PM
Quite right, looking back it looks obvious its immune to gravity flip!
Gravity flip ? O.o haha, whatever!

Dan69
07-18-2013, 05:35 AM
polarity flip*


I'm selling lawnmower that works on magnets. Interested?

That would be a fucking amazing lawnmower

DarkstaR
07-23-2013, 01:59 PM
polarity flip*



That would be a fucking amazing lawnmower


Sooo... An electric lawnmower?

dinmamma
07-23-2013, 03:43 PM
Sooo... An electric lawnmower?

Shhh... don't tell the secret :)

Dan69
07-24-2013, 06:14 AM
Sooo... An electric lawnmower?

That cuts grass and everything

ErraNewStillLeaving
10-09-2013, 09:05 PM
http://news.cnet.com/8301-11386_3-57598185-76/elon-musk-on-the-hyperloop-its-like-getting-a-ride-on-space-mountain/

http://www.spacex.com/hyperloop

DarkstaR what are your thoughts?